tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post1280489198231817415..comments2024-03-28T11:52:55.714+00:00Comments on Battlefields and Warriors: First Saratoga 1777Normhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-26425692620618163522019-08-26T04:18:59.566+00:002019-08-26T04:18:59.566+00:00Hi Caleb, thanks for thoughts, yes I see what you ...Hi Caleb, thanks for thoughts, yes I see what you are saying on the Battalion, it can always augment another unit, it is a sort of sub-calculation before considering the art plus Inf combination.<br /><br />Interesting point about the additional unit having counter-attack capability, as you say, a grey area. If allowed, it would mean that a stack of any 3 or of 2 infantry would need to be attacked from two hexes to prevent the counter attack ability and for that to be done in a way that it would be two individual attacks, but on re-reading the rules, I note that a single hex can only be attacked once in a combat phase and that multiple attacks against a hex must be combined into a single attack, so yes, in effect, treating a unit as capable of 'hiding' doesn't seem right and the tactic would encourage stacking with a hint of the killer stacks about it, which again doesn't feel right.<br /><br />I played Salem Church last night without issue, though of course it doesn't use battalions. It gave a very interesting game, but that sense that an apparently 'simple' system not being that simple came through, though of course not as much as the full 'parent' set of Musket and Saber rules :-)<br />Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-35089452692396248332019-08-26T01:17:08.514+00:002019-08-26T01:17:08.514+00:00Sorry to be more specific on the battalion: if a r...Sorry to be more specific on the battalion: if a regiment and an artillery are in a hex, I think the battalion could add its factor to the regiment, and then the hex total is the regiment (augmented by battalion) plus artillery.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01663710786403803593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-11591869214727764592019-08-26T01:16:08.051+00:002019-08-26T01:16:08.051+00:00I think I disagree with 2 interpretations, Norm. T...I think I disagree with 2 interpretations, Norm. The first is that it seems to me that a battalion can add its factor to an infantry + artillery in its hex. When it says it can add its combat factor to any one unit, it's just saying it can't add its factor to multiple units, not that the normal rules about 1 inf + 1 art in the hex can combine. At least, that's how I see it.<br /><br />I also think that units in excess of what can defend in a hex do NOT get to make a double attack - I reason that those units are still subject to the attack (since they have to retreat if the defenders are forced to retreat). I admit this is a gray area but it seems unfair to be able to "hide" units in a stack to keep them from being attacked and then get a double attack with them!Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01663710786403803593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-37090852924324831592019-08-25T16:16:07.935+00:002019-08-25T16:16:07.935+00:00I sat down with the rules today and used both ACW ...I sat down with the rules today and used both ACW set (Salems Church) and the AWI set (Saratoga) to try and get these back into my head. I deliberately did not look at the Standard rules from the 'full' system, to keep my check of the Quick rules 'pure'.<br /><br />Artillery, Cavalry, Leaders and Battalions are all single step and have an ineffective side, triggered by retreat.<br /><br />A bar on the counter whether red or yellow, signifies a single step unit.<br /><br />The Combat results are not adequately explained, but one can assume from the text that the option to retreat / disorder on a AR / DR result is open to choice, while the AX / DX was subject to a morale test ... however, we now know due to errata that the AX / DX is auto loss and no retreat. <br /><br />Stacked units are attacked as a group, but only one infantry and one artillery within that group can use their combat value to calculate the differential (if a battalion is present, it is not limited to working with artillery, but could work with another infantry unit). If they suffer a retreat, the whole group retreats. <br /><br />Light units can be used like ordinary infantry ... or they can skirmish. A rifleman is rather like a skirmisher with better range! with the bonus that a DR will also disrupt the enemy. Basically a skirmish or rifle attack is just like a normal infantry attack except the firers cannot suffer an adverse result.<br /><br />If the British have 2 battalions and 1 artillery, then they are still only defending / attacking with 2 units (1 bat and 1 art), if the british had just two infantry regiments, then only 1 could be used, but if they had a battalion it could work with any other infantry unit including another battalion, because a battalion can be used with any ONE other unit. <br /><br />One assumes that if a third unit exists in the defenders hex and is not attacked by another source, then the 2nd para of 7.2 is active and that unit can counter-attack at double strength. It seems that artillery or one assumes rifle / skirmish fire from another hex could be that other source.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-20759728088859446822019-08-24T07:47:27.827+00:002019-08-24T07:47:27.827+00:00Of note is that a two step battalion counter does ...Of note is that a two step battalion counter does not have an ineffective side!<br /><br />There must be a right answer, but I am too far removed from the memory of the rules and system right now to work that out properly. I know there was a blogger who was having similar problems,so he thought about re-writing them to make a better and non-conflicting sense. I can't remember who that was.<br /><br />I like the subject and format of the games, but the rules are unfriendly, I have a few things in the queue, but then I may return to these and try and nail these things down in a document that will make them easier to get back into for repeat play.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-74491125403874752602019-08-24T02:57:27.212+00:002019-08-24T02:57:27.212+00:00This seems the key phrase from standard rules (not...This seems the key phrase from standard rules (note how it applies to battalions!; this is not clear in quick play rules): "Ar or Dr = Attacker retreat or Defender retreat. The owning player has a choice: either the primary unit on the affected side is disrupted (see 11.1) or all units of the affected side retreat (7.9). If the primary unit already is disrupted the retreat must be made. Retreating leaders, battalions, squadrons, and artillery become ineffective (2.8).Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09642406003198960887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-3182780026371749872019-08-23T15:09:16.931+00:002019-08-23T15:09:16.931+00:00Hi Wayne,
Rule sections 8 and 9 have artillery an...Hi Wayne, <br />Rule sections 8 and 9 have artillery and cavalry go ineffective when forced to retreat.<br /><br />here is a link to the DG e-rules, you need to click on the full rules tab and I think they auto download.<br /><br />http://decisiongames.com/wpsite/e-rules/folio-series-e-rules/<br />Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-69243088727853287162019-08-23T13:54:22.798+00:002019-08-23T13:54:22.798+00:00Thanks so much! In some ways your answer raises mo...Thanks so much! In some ways your answer raises more questions! (when does a unit become ineffective? I only see rules for Disorder). <br /><br />With so many battalions in this game, the stacking issue is absolutely critical. The British will VERY often have 2 battalions and an artillery piece in a hex. An American regiment could attack that hex and focus on the artillery alone? or one battalion alone?<br /><br />Your post originally indicated (I think) a link to the full rules, but I don't see it. Do you sill have one?<br /><br />I appreciate your indulgence on This. I love the DG concept for short portable games, but I also find their playtesting underdeveloped. Their Belisarius game was a disaster.Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09642406003198960887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-46484206248348585292019-08-23T04:56:39.780+00:002019-08-23T04:56:39.780+00:00Gosh Wayne, it is three years since I looked at th...Gosh Wayne, it is three years since I looked at this game, so here is my best shot. Units with a red stripe are single step units and are removed from play on a loss result. Their reverse side is simply to show them when they are ineffective and likewise that side also has a red stripe.<br /><br />The stacking rule (5) describes how units are attacked, so it is a single defender attacked but for results of retreat etc the hex is treated like a group and all must retreat.<br /><br />Looking in my notes, I have highlighted a sentence that 'Stacked units must attack as one and may only attack one hex', I am assuming this simply means that if he attacker is an infantry unit and artillery unit this is how they must behave.<br /><br />I recall having to dip into the full rules of bigger games (i.e. not the quick play rules in the mini-games) at times for some clarification on design intent.<br /><br />Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I would need to re-immerse myself in the game again pick up on all of the nuance and this system is nuanced ... just dashing off to work :-)Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-48964254053467624082019-08-21T22:32:03.844+00:002019-08-21T22:32:03.844+00:00Question: The battalions are nominally one-step un...Question: The battalions are nominally one-step units, but they have a reduced strength flip side. Doesn't a step loss eliminate them? Also, when units are stacked (e.g. 2 battalions and an artillery), must they be attacked as a group? Including by riflemen? Bombarding artillery attacks each unit separately, but do riflemen?Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09642406003198960887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-64094232308686218102016-10-01T10:03:00.622+00:002016-10-01T10:03:00.622+00:00Hi Jay - liked the look of your recent 'aquisi...Hi Jay - liked the look of your recent 'aquisitions'. I did a Saalfeld blog post and enjoyed the scenario as it has more cavalry than usual in these games, it just adds a different perspective. The series has a lot of potential and of course are small enough to have at least part of the action transferred across to figure and hex games, something that I intend to explore as these 1/2 inch counters can simply be put behind the units and would be no more obtrusive than the commonly sed dice markers are.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-88181437073440565762016-09-29T17:40:55.080+00:002016-09-29T17:40:55.080+00:00Hi Norm, welcome back! Your blog was sadly missed....Hi Norm, welcome back! Your blog was sadly missed. Thanks for the review of Saratoga, very helpful.I have Saalfeld which is also a very nice little game. <br /><br />JayOld Trousershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16866101372406631079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-47841747869603438032016-09-29T06:59:06.353+00:002016-09-29T06:59:06.353+00:00Thanks all, I enjoyed getting back into the saddle...Thanks all, I enjoyed getting back into the saddle and dabbled with a slightly differerent format (start - mid - end game points and mixing observations into the game notes). <br /><br />Chris, my approach to my browsing time now is to just visit those places that are of a positive and creative nature. On blogs alone, there is so much blog stuff around now that you can easily select the ones that match your interests and create yourself a virtual bespoke magazine experience - how good is that!Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-20963625133923109482016-09-29T06:09:49.167+00:002016-09-29T06:09:49.167+00:00Really happy to see you back! I was thinking of w...Really happy to see you back! I was thinking of what could be done to the trolls among us. My current scheme would be to send a message on their behalf to certain websites, expressing great interest in meeting their selections of young, beautiful Russian/Hungarian/Filipino/etc. brides who are seeking generous American gentlemen. The resulting spam in the trolls' mailboxes should keep them too busy to slam anybody.<br /><br />Helpfully yours,<br /><br />ChrisChrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05091296131481416326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-6167078801814881882016-09-28T20:16:48.861+00:002016-09-28T20:16:48.861+00:00I like this format as well. A real commander shou...I like this format as well. A real commander should not have to control more than about 8-12 formations. This game pretty much hits the right command level. The rules are simple but like most board wargames these days, there does seem to be at least some fiddliness which can be hard to remember.<br /><br />I'm not really put off by the counter/map art or anything like that. I think it is a solid offering. I had no idea there was a rules errata. You are right. They should have updated the physical game!Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17580996687227953658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-85571825706347573252016-09-28T14:33:37.307+00:002016-09-28T14:33:37.307+00:00Thanks for this write up and getting back into blo...Thanks for this write up and getting back into blogging! Always enjoy it when I see a new Norm post in my newsreader :)<br /><br />I got a couple Decision Games in the past but the sloppy implementation put me off. I really like what they're trying to do in this space and think there is ample market of cost- and/or space-conscious consumers who would really benefit from these folio-style games. Unfortunately DG's slipshod implementations really ruin the experience and make it too frustrating. A little more attention to detail would go a long way but that seems to be beyond their capabilities, sadly. Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01663710786403803593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-34692115934792637992016-09-28T08:34:16.267+00:002016-09-28T08:34:16.267+00:00I used to buy a lot of DG out and now I don't ...I used to buy a lot of DG out and now I don't for the reasons you highlight.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-34669683139740060972016-09-28T07:54:08.049+00:002016-09-28T07:54:08.049+00:00I've not considered a DG offering for many yea...I've not considered a DG offering for many years. My experience has been that game design is often underdeveloped and components are not state of the art. Still, I pick up the occasional S&T. Perhaps I should reconsider? Appreciate your review!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.com