tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post3740713266694081771..comments2024-03-28T16:32:41.081+00:00Comments on Battlefields and Warriors: PBEM Germantown gameNormhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-19162304008442115602020-06-20T16:08:13.985+00:002020-06-20T16:08:13.985+00:00Thank you for taking it on :-) and pleased that yo...Thank you for taking it on :-) and pleased that you enjoyed it. I must admit that I have been back a couple of times to Re-read it, as it was just so fascinating to work on.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-53313553319829275792020-06-20T15:04:09.503+00:002020-06-20T15:04:09.503+00:00Just had a chance to read through in full, loved i...Just had a chance to read through in full, loved it, great work Norm and players!JWHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637785437909299947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-91878971095007371442020-06-15T15:23:51.340+00:002020-06-15T15:23:51.340+00:00Hi Mike, thanks for taking on the long read, I kee...Hi Mike, thanks for taking on the long read, I keep on saying I won't do that :-)<br /><br />I think we were lucky that we had a good group that entered the spirit and kept this going.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-20756049346718451872020-06-15T06:17:50.116+00:002020-06-15T06:17:50.116+00:00Sorry for the late comment but it is such a long r...Sorry for the late comment but it is such a long read that I ended up breking it down in episodes!<br /><br />Norm I think this is a fantastic concept and judging from the enthusiastic comments above it was a resounding success. I think this is the first time I am sensing such eagerness and enthusiasm about a game in the comments section. I enjoyed reading the comments as much as the AAR itself. Definitely a hugely deserved well done! Mike Vellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01220933613292414697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-8226075548839016052020-06-08T13:35:32.867+00:002020-06-08T13:35:32.867+00:00A really enjoyable write up of a very interesting ...A really enjoyable write up of a very interesting game! Sounds like you got the "friction " of war just right and a great narrative!<br />Best Iain caveadsum1471https://www.blogger.com/profile/02174163740406928172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-41542076492215959292020-06-07T15:15:19.936+00:002020-06-07T15:15:19.936+00:00Thanks Jack - all good.Thanks Jack - all good.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-19435556587481207452020-06-07T13:57:48.716+00:002020-06-07T13:57:48.716+00:00Norm,
"Jack, I wonder to what degree that ca...Norm,<br /><br />"Jack, I wonder to what degree that case can be off set by the 'obey' ethos of the time?"<br />I dunno, I think there have been headstrong generals throughout history ;)<br /><br />And in multi-player games like this, I don't believe you need any sort of dice-roll modifiers to determine how commanders would act, the players' own personalities will shine through in the uncertainty. I think you would see the players themselves justifying why they acted cautiously/timidly, prudently/efficiently, and/or aggressively/recklessly, depending on how it turns out!<br /><br />By playing a game with larger dimensions (both map size and number of forces) where you issue/receive orders only once per every three turns or so, you'll even get Commanding Officers getting too far into the weeds; instead of providing commander's intent they attempt to provide detailed, step-by step orders for their subordinates, but the subordinates come to understand the commander's detailed orders have been overcome by events in terms of the changing tactical situation. I suppose from that standpoint it would be something like the CO receives SITREPs/provides guidance every four turns, while local commanders receive tactical 'injects' from the umpire and react every two turns, to really pile on the fog of war. <br /><br />I like your Quatre Bras concept, and I think the 2/4 split I just mentioned actually accomplishes the same thing. <br /><br />In any case, I can't thank you enough for this, it was a tremendous amount of fun and I'm really looking forward to more ;)<br /><br />V/R,<br />JackJust Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03552962741823929433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-11040865818028572852020-06-06T22:06:23.873+00:002020-06-06T22:06:23.873+00:00Keith, I think you would hugely enjoy something li...Keith, I think you would hugely enjoy something like this, you don’t need to know anything about the boardgame, the umpire does all of that, so it’s just about tactics. <br /><br />My own tactics would be just like every other game I play, march everyone around until they are dizzy, point them in the right direction and shout charge! 😀Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-14063963199787555392020-06-06T21:10:16.997+00:002020-06-06T21:10:16.997+00:00Well done to all involved...as a total outsider an...Well done to all involved...as a total outsider and never having played a single board game in forty plus years of my toy soldier obsession, it's very obvious Norm provided you all with a very stimulating experience!rrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316317334203888350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-74029501326497406982020-06-06T20:26:41.540+00:002020-06-06T20:26:41.540+00:00Hi Stew,
Great to “meet” you at last and find out ...Hi Stew,<br />Great to “meet” you at last and find out something of the real person behind General Grant. You really got it right with your praise of Norman. I cannot imagine many others who’d have drawn the response he did for players and players who not only saw it through, but responded so promptly turn by turn.<br />Having followed Norman’s account of contributing to the Mathilda’s Field miniatures game and knowing that he was the only person to send in the requested set of Confederate orders, it says everything that we all came on board and stayed on board. As I’ve already said, I was devastated when General Howe died and I thought that I might have written my last set of orders in response to your reports that I awaited with such high anticipation along with those of General Knyphausen.<br />I sent you both praise in my orders and I’ll say it again that I soon knew that I could rely on you both for good information and the best handling of the men. I really felt we worked as a team and I know we all tried to maintain the language and flavour of the period. Three huzzahs to the men in red and green!<br />Polydorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08875339847623732683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-4250546514272525652020-06-06T18:54:04.436+00:002020-06-06T18:54:04.436+00:00Jack, I wonder to what degree that case can be off...Jack, I wonder to what degree that case can be off set by the 'obey' ethos of the time? I think two things would / could happen, the commander would stick rigidly with last orders or the commander could TRY and act on their own initiative, I wonder just how much freedom of initiative there was in the day or how much latitude you had to get something wrong!, but assuming there was scope, then each commander would need to be rated from say cautious through to reckless or aggressive etc and then a die roll made to see whether they can indeed go off and do the thing that they 'can see needs doing'. perhaps a modifier if the 'thing' that needs dealing with is dangerously obvious.<br /><br />It seems that whole area would need a sub set of rules so that everyone was treated equally within their historic character / performance and that post game, those umpire decisions could be justified.<br /><br />I quite like a system that I did years ago for a Quatre Bras battle in which all formations had starting orders with objectives and the game was set going. If the army commander wanted to change something, they would send a messenger out, who would take a certain amount of time, the formation would then need some time to re-orientate themselves, by which time the second order was practically obsolete - at times it paid to stick with the original order .... even if a bad one! Though this battlefield is very small compared to many that we are familiar with.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-13431516219239483842020-06-06T18:05:00.832+00:002020-06-06T18:05:00.832+00:00"I wonder if a bit of orders friction might h..."I wonder if a bit of orders friction might have made things a bit more (delightfully!) uncertain for we colonials. If there had been, say, a die roll to see if Washington's orders would arrive in time for each commander each turn, it could have forced us to to play the situation we saw and may have lead to more (or less!) caution and a few additional coordination challenges for the colonials."<br /><br />Yes, I've played in games like this where you receive and provide orders that get carried out over two or three turns, which can significantly change the tactical situation, so it becomes incredibly important for the overall CO to have briefed his subordinates on the overall picture, scheme of maneuver, and to have given an accurate statement of commander's intent.<br /><br />This was fantastic, but that adds considerably to the friction we're all discussing!<br /><br />V/R,<br />JackJust Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03552962741823929433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-57138307429950688622020-06-06T17:50:29.552+00:002020-06-06T17:50:29.552+00:00You're supreme leadership led us to victory! ;...You're supreme leadership led us to victory! ;)<br /><br />V/R,<br />JackJust Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03552962741823929433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-31501567421928343912020-06-06T17:46:07.469+00:002020-06-06T17:46:07.469+00:00Hi Stew, glad you enjoyed it. A perceptive post, a...Hi Stew, glad you enjoyed it. A perceptive post, as a few weeks ago, I was ready to take a small step back from the blog and instead increase my internet footprint at my Commanders site, which I like, but it is totally non-interactive. This Germantown experience has been a shot in the arm in that regard.<br /><br />Thanks for the kind words (blushing) :-)Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-43682449884613320962020-06-06T17:38:02.684+00:002020-06-06T17:38:02.684+00:00Norm,
I can only echo (echo)(echo) what others hav...Norm,<br />I can only echo (echo)(echo) what others have already stated about the game experience. I played as General Grant on the British and the fog of war was a most enjoyable irritation. 😀. feeling that I was pretty sure I got this down to ‘oh Crap how’d I become surrounded?” <br /><br />I’m happy to see some familiar icons /bloggers who participated. Some are not known to me, so now I’m gonna go check out their blogs and maybe increase my online circle of best blogging buddies and make new friends; just like a real game club. 😀<br /><br />But in an effort to make Norm blush;<br />Thank you for taking the time and energy to do this. I know that you enjoyed it, but I’d bet we players probably enjoyed it more. I know you have in the past, questioned if the blog was worth the effort. I can only say that it’s blogs like yours, which is really just an extension of you, are the only ones that can bring 9 players together online in a PBEM. I’m sure if i tried such a thing, I’d only get one volunteer, and it’d be you. <br />So I hope that these rare interactions have shown how much we appreciate you in this online community. And it’s all worth it, especially in these crazy times. <br /><br />And lastly, I’m pretty sure that somehow the Rebels chested. German Town is supposed to be a draw. General Grant will return and he will bring machine guns. 😀<br /><br />Stewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00340930167419307092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-45296638762534425522020-06-06T17:27:29.580+00:002020-06-06T17:27:29.580+00:00Since I had the whole game out in front of me and ...Since I had the whole game out in front of me and I was handling all the messages, I was enjoying all the surprises that others were getting, but never thought something would surprise me ......... and then the surrender offer from Washington, which of course sits outside the rules and system, but plays very well to reality and narrative - I was taken by surprise, what a hoot and a ton of fun.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-67708986116110670512020-06-06T17:15:29.345+00:002020-06-06T17:15:29.345+00:00Hi! I played Grant. I wasn’t planning any big re...Hi! I played Grant. I wasn’t planning any big reveal; y’all just made it to the comments faster. ☹️<br />I enjoyed interacting with you playing Howe. I often felt you and I were of the same mind on what had to be done. I’m glad that my reports were useful in helping you enjoy the game. 😀Stewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00340930167419307092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-62294846610224425352020-06-06T15:13:42.216+00:002020-06-06T15:13:42.216+00:00So on to Washington’s offer of surrender. Initial...So on to Washington’s offer of surrender. Initially, I was non-plussed. I was also pleased that Norman had left it up to me as the British Commander to make the decision and hadn’t simply said that he the game should play on.<br /> I evaluated what was being said; a mixture of carrot: honourable surrender/saving lives/ free passage/ no destruction of the camp/march away etc - then stick: a heavy suggestion that I couldn’t rely on General Knyphausen and his Hessians anyway not to do a runner/potential slaughter if I continued. I really thought whoever was playing Washington was a canny guy.<br />First of all, I thought in game terms. If I accepted, the game was over. Well, playing it out ftf as a wargame on the table, I know many people do call a game over when they think they can’t possibly win. That’s not something I tend to do. I like to see what the outcome is [and I think that is exactly how Norman thought when he decided to play on to see how the British managed their retreat.] I also thought that this was ultimately Norman’s game and it wasn’t for me to pull the plug and stop it there and then.<br />Next, I pondered on what I thought would have happened in history. Here was a less senior officer thrust into command by the death of his superior. I wondered whether he would be more or less likely to accept; I considered the implications and came to the conclusion that he wouldn’t have accepted the offer of surrender if only because he’d have lived on in disgrace [and possibly have faced charges of cowardice/dismissal from the Army, if not being shot.]<br />Finally, I went back to the game situation and weighed up what my thoughts on the situation had been just before I got the request to surrender. I’d seen this as the climax of the game and that victory/defeat hung in a very delicate balance. From what I could see for myself from the picture Norman had sent most recently, my forces remained still fairly evenly matched with Washington’s with much the same degree of damage on both sides. The trouble was there was quite a bit I couldn’t see. General Knyphausen had done a fantastic job of giving me accurate information and we both feared that he faced a substantial force, but I knew that he’d handled his force well and there still quite some defensive strength left.<br />So, all in all it was a civil refusal and the decision to fight on.<br />Polydorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08875339847623732683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-48802284943608258812020-06-06T14:40:31.722+00:002020-06-06T14:40:31.722+00:00I had intended to talk about the offer of Surrende...I had intended to talk about the offer of Surrender from Washington a little later, but Norman’s posting of the gist of it makes now seem more appropriate. I also want to link it with the announcement of my death as General Howe. The reason being because they were the big too “shock” moments personally. There was plenty of suspense throughout, but these two really brought me up short.<br />Howe’s death came first. It was a brutal moment. I knew it was only a game. But when the stark statement that Howe was dead came through, I realised just how much I’d invested of myself in playing the part. It’s the nearest I can imagine to opening a newspaper and seeing your obituary. Hard on its heels came the thought, “I’m out of the game!!” That was an even worse thought. Thankfully as I read on in the notification from Norman [I greatly liked the fact that all communication from Norman was done in a very matter of fact way as the Umpire and all my messages to him were similarly addressed to the Umpire and signed as General Howe], I found that in game terms Command had passed to Brig. Gen. Erskine, who I was informed had been with General Howe for much of the time and by his side when the bullet struck.<br />Polydorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08875339847623732683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-663374799901463642020-06-06T13:34:24.852+00:002020-06-06T13:34:24.852+00:00Yes, I'm a bit of a board wargamer too. We pro...Yes, I'm a bit of a board wargamer too. We probably most of us dabble in a spot of both!Prufrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17659918463589870423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-60842740353798713712020-06-06T13:33:21.617+00:002020-06-06T13:33:21.617+00:00Good points, Norm.Good points, Norm.Prufrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17659918463589870423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-42704072023807064442020-06-06T13:29:17.864+00:002020-06-06T13:29:17.864+00:00Aaron, the Guard / Militia interaction was a super...Aaron, the Guard / Militia interaction was a superb part of the game.<br /><br />I gave some thought to delayed lost orders. Initially thinking that a D10 with a result of 10 would mean the the messenger had become ‘lost’ or otherwise prevented on getting through. But, I decided that there are too few formations in play, especially for the british and that this is a small battlefield with each turn representing and hour and a half, more than enough time for second riders and even personal viewing range of other commanders to come into play. <br /><br />for example, Greene would often give a full account of what was going on on his left (you), so regardless of whether your report got through, there was a doubling effect as Greene’s report would be likely to get through, with at least an appraisal of the general situation.<br /><br />Finally, i thought the impact of just 1 turn of lost orders from 1 formation would have a too drastic impact on the game.<br /><br />I did however give Howe the Dragoons directly to his command from the outset. The caveat was that if he tried to do anything with them at more than 3 hex range for himself, a D10 would be rolled an on 9 or 10, the instruction would be ignored. The special rule was to encourage him to allocate the Dragoons to either of his wing commanders at some point, with a likelihood that they could operate on the extreme out flanks (eyes, ears, mobility and all of that).Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-55139776026009841822020-06-06T13:16:08.965+00:002020-06-06T13:16:08.965+00:00One thing that did strike me during the game and a...One thing that did strike me during the game and after was that the turn structure and situation possibly gave we colonials a bit of an advantage. We knew with certainty what we needed to do to win and could pick our points of attack, so the limited information probably suited us a bit better than it did the British. <br /><br />I wonder if a bit of orders friction might have made things a bit more (delightfully!) uncertain for we colonials. If there had been, say, a die roll to see if Washington's orders would arrive in time for each commander each turn, it could have forced us to to play the situation we saw and may have lead to more (or less!) caution and a few additional coordination challenges for the colonials. <br /><br />The British, being closer together and surer of their ground, may not have needed to dice at all for orders to get through, perhaps?<br /><br />It was a gallant effort by the British. The dramatic highpoint for me was realising just who we'd run into out on our flank march, and then having to think of how we would cope with it! Wonderful stuff.<br /><br />Thanks again to all, and Norm especially.Prufrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17659918463589870423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-24411155422259250852020-06-06T12:51:25.844+00:002020-06-06T12:51:25.844+00:00I can add a technical point to that - at the point...I can add a technical point to that - at the point that Knyphausen wanted to move to the left position (as per his orders), a rules point occurred, when a unit disengages from contact, it can only move 1 hex and never directly to contact another enemy.<br /><br />Knyphausen and his full strength brigade carried a total of 12 attack factors, if he had moved away just 1 hex, yes he would have been positioned to possibly move more freely in the next turn (providing he was not recontacted), but for that turn, those 12 attack factors would be totally wasted.<br /><br />The game was reach a pivotal point and the situation was that in his present location, he could help the attack on Germantown and increase the chance of Market Square staying in British control, but that he was too far away to do anything about the encampments and so given all of that, he stayed and gave assistance to the immediate greater threat (by Umpire decision acting for what the commander on the spot would likely do, starting from a position that he was already getting sucked into that firefight).<br /><br />The British were in fact very unlucky that their big attack rolled so badly, allowing Greene’s VA to retreat, a better die roll would had delivered much greater harm.<br /><br />A bit of a Hobson’s Choice for Knyphausen unfortunately and just one of the many nuances to fall out of the terrain / unit position / zoc rules combination.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-61461661805469390762020-06-06T12:24:07.840+00:002020-06-06T12:24:07.840+00:00Steve/Kynphausen, You must explain why Kynphausen ...Steve/Kynphausen, You must explain why Kynphausen joined the British at Germantown and left his Division alone on the British left. Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.com