tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post5371137584887111316..comments2024-03-28T16:32:41.081+00:00Comments on Battlefields and Warriors: Old School tactical - Tiger I v T-34 performanceNormhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-32640972809906995692020-05-20T05:19:06.228+00:002020-05-20T05:19:06.228+00:00Gab, all good, I'm just glad to see people rea...Gab, all good, I'm just glad to see people reading these articles. Cheers.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-18635065328369212372020-05-20T01:16:35.046+00:002020-05-20T01:16:35.046+00:00Hi Norm,
Yes you're right. I'm not used to...Hi Norm,<br />Yes you're right. I'm not used to subtle tank differences (new to wargames) and my eyes missed the /85 bit of T-34/85. And I just related it to the table provided. Still, I guess I did add some interesting considerations for the basic T-34 for anyone interested.<br />-GabHarcoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109319645179511443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-1228732791813387132020-05-19T09:54:51.344+00:002020-05-19T09:54:51.344+00:00Hi Gab, thanks for posting. I think the text is ri...Hi Gab, thanks for posting. I think the text is right. This is the more powerful 85mm version of the T-34 so it is firing on the -1 column, which I did not include in the sample columns illustration in the post, that just shows -3 and +7 or greater.<br /><br />The T34/85 at range 10 has an attack value of 9. The Tiger I has a defence value of 10, so without any other modifiers this gives a raw differential of a -1 attack.<br /><br />On a dice roll of 11+ on the -1 column, this yields a ‘X’ result on the Vehicle Combat Table, which is a destroyed result. 7 - 10 brings the softer results including damage, shaken tests and broken tests.<br /><br />Let me know if I am missing something, it has been a while since I wrote the article and have not re-read it in full when making this reply. Cheers.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-60954634410682454502020-05-19T03:24:48.500+00:002020-05-19T03:24:48.500+00:00Interesting analysis, thanks.
Small note, which I ...Interesting analysis, thanks.<br />Small note, which I think might just be a typo.<br /><br />"Anyway, using the T34/85 as it currently stands (attack value 9), at up to 500 metres (10 hexes), it will DESTROY a Tiger I on a dice roll of 11+ and get a softer effect on a roll of 7 - 10."<br /><br />D=damaged, not destroyed.<br />Damage is based on a D6 roll; 1-2 minor damage (no effect), 3 secondary weapon, 4 primary weapon, 5 immobilised, or 6 abandoned.<br /><br />Two damaged states means the crew abandon the tank, equivalent to destroyed but only 1 casualty point rather than 2 for opponent as crew ran away.<br /><br />So even with T-34 rolling 11-12 on damage table they still only have a 1 in 6 chance of causing abandon, 1 in 6 chance of taking out the cannon, and a 2 in 6 chance of no effect at all. So even rolling a tricky 11-12 still only leads to 50% chance of success, though a second hit might be enough, though it also might not be if the tiger keeps rolling minor damage results.<br /><br />What are your thoughts on this Norm?<br /><br />-GabHarcoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109319645179511443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-90130359148404423712019-03-06T19:51:36.300+00:002019-03-06T19:51:36.300+00:00Thanks Craig, I did do a comparison on 5 games (on...Thanks Craig, I did do a comparison on 5 games (one being Ghost panzer) some time ago as a special Christmas post (LINK - http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.com/2014/12/comparing-lower-complexity-tactical.html ), it was a ton of work, but I have wondered about having a go at another batch of games. I will give some thought to perhaps a more 'tabulated' post which might be a half-way house to the two styles.<br /><br />All of the systems have good points and at least one thing that stops each of them getting a No1 spot for me and interestingly it is typically a different thing for each game, but I try on this blog to just write about what I like and so my posts tend not to be objectively critical. <br /><br />Even though there now looks to be plenty of game systems for WWII tactical, not everything seems to be getting new kit / orders-of-battle and so not all have proven themselves sufficiently future proof (yet) for determining whether to invest one's main time, money and effort into them ..... kit is everything :-)<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for suggestion, I will ponder some, though in the meantime, I am enjoying OST .... though I note ASL have just done The Factories and Panzer has a 1940 module, there is certainly plenty of good stuff around.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-38336112577494451802019-03-06T15:29:58.759+00:002019-03-06T15:29:58.759+00:00Another great analysis...I've been watching th...Another great analysis...I've been watching the OST for a while. Your previous write-ups lead me to BoB/Ghost Panzer and I like how that flows...Please keep this up. One suggestion...if you could think about some way to put the comparisons into a table--just of your own metrics/perspectives it would allow some more direct comparisons. They all have different strengths. <br /><br />Also--Campaign and linked games--which system might provide a better tactical resolution for a series?<br />Go Norm!<br />CRAIGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-83054503973699645762019-03-05T22:28:42.492+00:002019-03-05T22:28:42.492+00:00Thanks for the heads-up. Impressive artwork, his c...Thanks for the heads-up. Impressive artwork, his commitment to the series must be huge.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-90122635614799850142019-03-05T22:04:53.642+00:002019-03-05T22:04:53.642+00:00Norm, check out Yaah Magazine if you haven't a...Norm, check out Yaah Magazine if you haven't already. One of the back issues had a couple of features on OST and served as a set of designer notes for the game. -- One of his most interesting comments is that as he is the Artist as well, the look of the game is a big part of the overall package. I agree w/him and love the look of the game.Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17977423734950866138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-221787388089792572019-03-05T19:26:24.395+00:002019-03-05T19:26:24.395+00:00Thanks for the thumbs up. The To Hit mods you desc...Thanks for the thumbs up. The To Hit mods you describe are a good house, giving neither side unfair advantage / disadvantage, though I think there are some nods in the system that point in that direction. I note that units that move / fire in that order do get a penalty, while Fire then Move do not. Also the mod for an ‘immobile’ (or bogged) unit is suggestive that Shayne has decided to wrap up the move / stationary aspect as a single case. I quite like these subtlties. <br /><br />It is always interesting to see how a designer approaches a sub-routine and how there are different approaches to the same issue in various games. For example here, for anti armour fire, the defensive terrain is added to the tank to influence the results table, another approach could have been to have it influence the To Hit process instead and then if hit, the penetration (attack) calculations would ignore the terrain. Both work, it’s just interesting to see which one is chosen and in my T-34 example in this system, being in the woods was of no benefit when under the gaze of the penetrative power of the 88.<br /><br />Being involved with several systems as a gamer does raise these interesting differences, I like much of what OST is doing and would really like to see Shayne do some in depth designer notes ....... though if given a choice, I would rather he spend his time on bringing new kit / scenarios to the table :-). All good.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-25800867520648086092019-03-05T18:58:26.517+00:002019-03-05T18:58:26.517+00:00Thank you, I am enjoy it.. I would highly recommen...Thank you, I am enjoy it.. I would highly recommend looking for the two part YouTube video that Stuka Joe has done on this game, it is a superb resource to help make a buying decision.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-30316152522217618212019-03-05T18:32:58.957+00:002019-03-05T18:32:58.957+00:00Echoing the crowd, Great work Norm. I'm like y...Echoing the crowd, Great work Norm. I'm like you in that I own all of these systems and play them all. I was one of the loudest voices for a more dangerous VCT and felt that the Infantry portion of OST was the better achievement. I do like the new table more, but reading your blog, I think Shayne has definitely put Soft Factors into his Armor/Gun ratings (a la Panzerblitz) and that's clearly a valid approach (although he hedges his bet w/the +1 Elite bonus - which I don't use). I also feel that Shayne has missed the boat on Tank Movement as Defense. This tactic is highlighted in Ghost Panzer, and I house rule that the To Hit roll is -1 for both the Target and the Firer moving/having moved. This means that a -2 to hit mod is possible which if you were to replay your T-34 dash would make it that much more interesting. I recommend that you revisit Conflict of Heroes. They have added a custom die to randomize the Action Point sequence -- works great. Anyway, cheers and thanks for the great article!Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17977423734950866138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-63975612302123353712019-03-05T16:32:59.912+00:002019-03-05T16:32:59.912+00:00Nice, in-depth review. I'm actively considerin...Nice, in-depth review. I'm actively considering investing in this beast of a game system (it's size and heft are already legendary), and you've got me leaning somewhat in favor now....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-84477253511954501862019-03-01T23:38:35.963+00:002019-03-01T23:38:35.963+00:00Thanks Stew, the impulse system really keeps both ...Thanks Stew, the impulse system really keeps both sides drawn into play at all times, there is no down time, which helps keep the game engaging. In these sort of examples, you only need the Tiger to miss a couple of shots and the other tanks can be all over them, it does bring suspense to some if the dice rolls.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-33256794902720118862019-03-01T23:32:42.145+00:002019-03-01T23:32:42.145+00:00Really deep and interesting post Norm. Well thoug...Really deep and interesting post Norm. Well thought out and presented. <br />It’s a bear versus the wolves situation and those are usually fun to play. The impulse system seems to support the teamwork needed by the T34s. Those poor Soviets had their work cut out for them. Whose gonna be the bait. 😀<br /> I wish I had more time for tactical boardgames like this. Maybe when I retire I’ll have to come back and find some game recommendations. Stewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00340930167419307092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-9155955038662783882019-03-01T15:40:02.126+00:002019-03-01T15:40:02.126+00:00Thanks Iain, I do enjoy the nuances that crop up b...Thanks Iain, I do enjoy the nuances that crop up between vehicles, there is just so much weapon, armour and training philosophy diversity in just these few years. <br /><br />The JSII v Tiger II is a good thought. I have a couple of Ospreys that tackle the subject, you now have me thinking about re-visiting them. Perhaps I should also do 'anything' v the ISU 152 so that I can work out why mine don't survive long on the battlefield :-)Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-79864982877939737162019-03-01T15:33:47.044+00:002019-03-01T15:33:47.044+00:00Thanks, I did used to own ATS, enjoyed it and in f...Thanks, I did used to own ATS, enjoyed it and in fact enthused on its immediate predecessor,'Combat', both by Critical Hit, but I stopped buying / collecting when the designer changed the system from impulse to fixed turn sequence and then I think at some point it turned back again and the rules over the same period didn't seem stable. The thing I did not like was that in each attack column there was a wide range of results and consequently the use of a D10 with plus or minus modifiers, produced big swings in results between the high and low scores and so within each single strength band, outcome seemed more prone to luck than good judgement. The system may have changed again since those days, but I have never returned to it. Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-75244484989214399572019-03-01T11:11:40.924+00:002019-03-01T11:11:40.924+00:00Well I stuck to it and found it very engaging and ...Well I stuck to it and found it very engaging and I don't even play tactical boardgames! T34/76 versus Tiger is pretty tough,I guess it would be worse with a Sherman! T34/85 v Panther would be more even and ISII v Tiger would be interesting ,the contrast between raw Soviet crews and veteran German crews seem well covered to.<br />Best Iaincaveadsum1471https://www.blogger.com/profile/02174163740406928172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-53964134481166040542019-03-01T08:17:38.450+00:002019-03-01T08:17:38.450+00:00Given your propensity for tactical WWII systems, w...Given your propensity for tactical WWII systems, when will we be treated to a review of Advanced Tobruk System? No need to worry about about spilled ink. I really enjoy your perspective and more is better!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-22577269229984730772019-03-01T05:45:14.813+00:002019-03-01T05:45:14.813+00:00Thanks Jonathan, my posts can be a bit windy to th...Thanks Jonathan, my posts can be a bit windy to the point that in this age of perhaps too much internet content to consume each day, the reader perhaps gets put off long posts and I got to the point with this one when I wondered whether it was going too far, but the e ink refused to stop :-)<br /><br />I do get a bit confused between sets and can't just hop from one to the other, so tend to spend several months at a time with just one, though just as I get comfortable, another winks at me, I need to settle down with just one or two systems really.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-89415038006708137232019-02-28T23:52:52.864+00:002019-02-28T23:52:52.864+00:00Norm, this is a terrific analysis of the game syst...Norm, this is a terrific analysis of the game system and play. Your example play through of T34 vs Tiger was fascinating. As I read your thorough playthrough, I wonder how you keep all of these disparate, tactical WWII sims in your head without becoming confounded by the various systems.<br /><br />As always, very well done. Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-29063147868203802912019-02-28T22:06:36.486+00:002019-02-28T22:06:36.486+00:00Thanks Rodger, there are a few of them scattered a...Thanks Rodger, there are a few of them scattered around (Ghost panzer, Lock 'n Load, Panzer, Conflict of Heroes)Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-36996579033212980622019-02-28T22:00:54.439+00:002019-02-28T22:00:54.439+00:00I enjoy the approach you took. I'll have to c...I enjoy the approach you took. I'll have to check out some of your other posts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01039193208832897885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-21339508582301389432019-02-28T19:05:26.184+00:002019-02-28T19:05:26.184+00:00Thanks, worlds toughest question ... helped only b...Thanks, worlds toughest question ... helped only by the word 'current' as I dip in and out of the various series, but tend to intensely run with one series over a few months, so that I get really familiar with it.<br /><br />An absolute favourite would be the original (4th edition 1977) basic Squad Leader module, if only they would re-do that, with perhaps the British added, another board and another 6 - 12 scenarios, I would be in my element. I suppose there is a nostalgia effect as well, because this game pressed the right buttons for a lifetime passion of all things tactical.<br /><br />I have good collections of multiple modules from Lock 'n Load, ASL, Panzer / MBT and now of course Old School Tactics, plus I have my own figures rules and it is too many systems to hold properly in my head or to get the time to enjoy a wide range of scenarios from any one system to start to get the most from it. Something needs to go and I just can't decide which!Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-80495974465351662412019-02-28T18:53:59.797+00:002019-02-28T18:53:59.797+00:00Great post, really interesting. Which is your cur...Great post, really interesting. Which is your current favourite tactical WW2 system?JWHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637785437909299947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5368677310334370714.post-78227647700843716152019-02-28T18:34:16.785+00:002019-02-28T18:34:16.785+00:00Thanks, post fatigue was not too far away, but I&#...Thanks, post fatigue was not too far away, but I'm glad you stayed with it.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.com